Morality is subjective
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| Started: | 4/2/2008 | Category: | Politics |
| Updated: | 7 months ago | Status: | Voting Period |
| Viewed: | 476 times | Debate No: | 3491 |
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (69)
Votes (24)
 Pro  Con Here are some subjects (from the 10 commandments) theft adultery murder gossip coveting others possessions (envy) Here are a few others lying abortion subjugation of others forced conversion to a "faith" or "state" justification of violence against innocents gay "marriage" polysexuality blurring of the lines between men and women OVERVIEW you are very young and have not had the life experience to know the consequences of violating ancient social morays and rules of conduct Thus this should be educational for you Moral Relativism, the HALLMARK OF THE DEMOCRATS AND LIBERALS , is slowly but surely destroying the basic building blocks of our society, those being the family and the Judeo-Christian ethics upon which this country was created Everything is OK - not matter how wrong or evil - it is just anothers point of view This is WRONG There is GOOD and EVIL There is Right and Wrong these principles are encased in LAWS and SOCIAL MORAYS they are IMPORTANT to the functioning of a free society your turn |
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Pro Firstly, since you have neglected to define morality, here is mine: morality, an individual's personal sense of right and wrong. So morality is a personal view (and therefore subjective), some of the common threads of which were written into biblical texts over 2000 years ago. not only would the individual person's sense of right and wrong (morality) change in that time, but it would also become nonsensical to live by the "laws" or "rules" of people that lived thousands of years ago (at least in my opinion, of which im sure you disagree. what a subjective way for us to feel about an issue). However, if you are going to use biblical text, then can you please let us know which translation you are using, is it the King James (KJV), New King James (NKJV), English Standard (ESV), New American Standard NASB), Revised Standard (RSV), New Revised Standard (NRSV), Updated NASB, Amplified Bible, New American Bible, New International (NIV), New English Bible, Good News Bible, Phillips Modern English, Living Bible (LB), New Living Bible (NLT), Jerusalem Bible, Modern Language, Contemporary English (CEV, "The Promise"), Today's English, Worldwide English, "The Message", or are you reading from a Greek or Hebrew version? http://www.swapmeetdave.com... I assume you are not reading from a Torah (Old Testament, and the basis for Judeo-Christian faith), as you say abortion is immoral, and the Torah allows it up to the third trimester (how oddly subjective, two different faiths based, at least in part, on the Torah disagreeing about right and wrong). To first rebut some of your examples of "wrong" things, adultery, while many people dislike it, the people committing it obviously do not believe that it is wrong, so here is an example of two (groups of) people disagreeing about morality, about right and wrong, how subjective of them. Murder, again people say it is immoral, but what is war but state-sanctioned murder. Seems odd, doesn't it. A random person kills someone, and is a murderer, yet a solder kills several people and is welcomed home a hero. Tad subjective, no? (Note: I'm not bashing our troops, just trying to make a point) gossip, if this is such an immoral act (as you say), then why do so many people around the world buy tabloids? They are just gossip magazines after all. How subjective of the world. Gay marriage, while several (mostly right wing Christians) despise gay marriage as a horrible sin, many others disagree, like say, the gays. What a subjective way to feel about a subject. I could show you why you're other examples of wrong behavior are subjective, but I think Vie made my point. Don't be an ageist, it's not an argument. It's your own personal feeling that the "young" don't have enough experience. To bad I disagree, how subjective of us. Your right in the statement "There is GOOD and EVIL" and "There is Right and Wrong" however, because everyone feels differently about what is good (right), and what is evil (wrong), they are both subjective ideals. Take Christianity, it was once part of the Jewish church, but it split off (around 400 ad) because it disagreed (subjectively) with some parts of Judaism. Then in the protestant reformation, it split into two different sects because of some rather large (subjective) disagreements. I could go on, but you get the idea. Your case is about how morality is what holds society together, however, as I have shown, this morality is entirely subjective. It is not morality (personal views) that holds society together, but the system of laws (societies) that it holds. thank you Con "Firstly, since you have neglected to define morality, here is mine: morality, an individual's personal sense of right and wrong." WRONG , WRONG , WRONG your PERSONAL views are irrelevant Morality is plainly and simply, a set of LAWS developed people over MILLENIA, based on both legal and spitirual means you DO NOT have the right to determine good and evil, they are set in stone if you start down this dangerous path of thinking , you will quickly find yourself supporting EVIL. becuase those that are EVIL and promote it use this notion Then you simply ramble and then come to this ABSURD conclusion "you say abortion is immoral, and the Torah allows it up to the third trimester" Oh please! Cite me the passages from the Old testament (torah) that support in any way this point of view Now onto the rest of your absurd points "adultery, while many people dislike it, the people committing it obviously do not believe that it is wrong, so here is an example of two (groups of) people disagreeing about morality, about right and wrong, how subjective of them." This is NONSENSE Both adulertous people KNOW they are being wrong, and are guilty Thousands of murders are committed every year, and hundreds of thousands of lives, espcially those of children, RUNIED by this SELFISH behavior you dont think it hurts kids for their parents to bitterly divorce? you dont think that the amount of pain and anguish from broken trust matter? you dont think the ruined lives and permanent distrust that happen matter? HOW HEARTLESS and WRONG! ----- your next liberal point ------- "Murder, again people say it is immoral, but what is war but state-sanctioned murder. Seems odd, doesn't it. A random person kills someone, and is a murderer, yet a solder kills several people and is welcomed home a hero. Tad subjective, no? (Note: I'm not bashing our troops, just trying to make a point)" The ONLY justification your try and make here is the COMPLETELY UNJUJSTIFIBLE you ARE bashing the troops and calling them the same as the scum who shoots a clerk in cold blood in a 7/11 or the SCUM who bomb innocents in Islamic fashion or the SCUM like "Mumia Jamal" who murder police officers YOU NEED TO HAVE YOUR HEAD EXAMINED ----------- your next liberal point____________ "gossip, if this is such an immoral act (as you say), then why do so many people around the world buy tabloids? They are just gossip magazines after all. How subjective of the world." When you look at the Buddhist codes of conduct, seven out of 11 deal with speech What we say is incredibly important Many have died based on LIES and FALSE RUMOURS FALSE WITNESS is not only a crime but one of the worst possible things GOSSIP is talking ill about someone NOT in their presence , where they cannot defend themselves It is a low behavior that I will not tolerate the fact that when rumours or even events are spread word of mouth, the story changes dramatically THE TRUTH IS THE MOST IMPORANT THING OF ALL ----------your next liberal point--------------- "Gay marriage, while several (mostly right wing Christians) despise gay marriage as a horrible sin, many others disagree, like say, the gays. What a subjective way to feel about a subject." You seem to always grasp for this argument SUBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE Isnt that a little bit weak? "Don't be an ageist, it's not an argument. It's your own personal feeling that the "young" don't have enough experience. To bad I disagree, how subjective of us." SUBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE Im sorry, but most kids are totally stupid and have no idea just how stupid they are the only thing that truly teaches is LIFE EXPERIENCE and your opinions are a perfect example- liberal sophistry finally you get something right "Your right in the statement "There is GOOD and EVIL" and "There is Right and Wrong" however, because everyone feels differently about what is good (right), and what is evil (wrong), they are both subjective ideals." SUBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE you really need a new word "Take Christianity, it was once part of the Jewish church, but it split off (around 400 ad) because it disagreed (subjectively) with some parts of Judaism. Then in the protestant reformation, it split into two different sects because of some rather large (subjective) disagreements. I could go on, but you get the idea" So are you arguing that one is good and the other evil? Your final point shows your complete confusion "Your case is about how morality is what holds society together, however, as I have shown, this morality is entirely subjective. It is not morality (personal views) that holds society together, but the system of laws (societies) that it holds. Uhhhmm. How do you think we came up with our laws? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? |
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Pro SweetBags forfeited this round.
Con MORALITY IS NOT SUBJECTIVE YOU (YES YOU, KIDS) have a RESPONSIBILITY to YOURSELVES AND SOCIETY to be a MORAL PERSON AND DO THE RIGHT THING AND FIGHT INJUSTICE AND IMMORALITY SOLARMAN |
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Pro SweetBags forfeited this round.
Con MORALITY IS NOT SUBJECTIVE I rest my case SOLARMAN |
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"any society who lives by these ten commandments will last for ever." what if said society is attacked by a neighboring one, and looses the subsequient war? then said society would cese to exist, at least in that iteration of it.
the "context" in which thou shall not kill was written, kill means (to some) murder. to others it means killing anyone not in self defense (making war out of the question), and to others still it means no killing period (even in self defense). in this case context is subservient to the readers/hearers definition/sense of the words/phrases, so everyone sees the same commandment differently. its the same with the other commandments as well, as with just about everything in every biblical text. everyone takes them differently. of course context is also subservient to the society one grows up/lives in. in some societys (usually the more war-torn ones) killing/death is a fact of life that you cant get away from, in other (generally more peacful) ones it is more alien/unknown, both would approch the same biblical passages differently.
That right there is the core of the problem. You can't. All of the explanations and definitions derived from the 10 commandments either appear elsewhere in the Bible, or are in all honestly subjective to the religion. The 10 Commandments, standing alone, is subjective to the definitions of the reader.
Prudence
Fortitude
Temperance
Justice
These can be used every day, and when you are in a pinch you can reference them for 100% accurate results ("is my action just?"... "am I exercising fortitude with my decision?"). These encompass many decisions every day, and don't depend on religious ideology; they would work for a buddhist, christian, atheist, etc. The ten commandments only really work in 2 situations:
1) when you are trying to exercise strict christianity (useless for lots of people who aren't christians)
2) when you are in a position when any sensible person wouldn't need them anyway (should I cheat on my wife?, should I murder someone?)
You can stretch them out a tiny bit more, but not much.
My point of bringing this up is this: this is the CATHOLIC interpretation of what it means. If you poke around the web you can see that multiple Christian and Jewish sects will take it a bit differently. The very essence of that is that biblical morality is subjective and not absolute.
Even the Catechism itself is subjective. For military action, it defines it as allowed if "the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated". That alone is pretty darn subjective.
Speaking as a former Christian, the literalism a lot of Christians put out is what drove me from the church in the first place. Morality is subjective because God gave us a brain to use. He gave us guidelines and put faith in us to figure out the details. It shouldn't be "God meant this and that" it should be "Our society as a reflection of God's guidelines believe this".
False in fact. Consistently living by the lessons taught in the Bible is suicide. This is due to the fact that the Bible idolizes one man (Jesus Christ) for his suicidal actions.