Morality is subjective
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| Started: | 4/2/2008 | Category: | Politics |
| Updated: | 7 months ago | Status: | Voting Period |
| Viewed: | 471 times | Debate No: | 3491 |
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (69)
Votes (24)
 Pro  Con Here are some subjects (from the 10 commandments) theft adultery murder gossip coveting others possessions (envy) Here are a few others lying abortion subjugation of others forced conversion to a "faith" or "state" justification of violence against innocents gay "marriage" polysexuality blurring of the lines between men and women OVERVIEW you are very young and have not had the life experience to know the consequences of violating ancient social morays and rules of conduct Thus this should be educational for you Moral Relativism, the HALLMARK OF THE DEMOCRATS AND LIBERALS , is slowly but surely destroying the basic building blocks of our society, those being the family and the Judeo-Christian ethics upon which this country was created Everything is OK - not matter how wrong or evil - it is just anothers point of view This is WRONG There is GOOD and EVIL There is Right and Wrong these principles are encased in LAWS and SOCIAL MORAYS they are IMPORTANT to the functioning of a free society your turn |
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Pro Firstly, since you have neglected to define morality, here is mine: morality, an individual's personal sense of right and wrong. So morality is a personal view (and therefore subjective), some of the common threads of which were written into biblical texts over 2000 years ago. not only would the individual person's sense of right and wrong (morality) change in that time, but it would also become nonsensical to live by the "laws" or "rules" of people that lived thousands of years ago (at least in my opinion, of which im sure you disagree. what a subjective way for us to feel about an issue). However, if you are going to use biblical text, then can you please let us know which translation you are using, is it the King James (KJV), New King James (NKJV), English Standard (ESV), New American Standard NASB), Revised Standard (RSV), New Revised Standard (NRSV), Updated NASB, Amplified Bible, New American Bible, New International (NIV), New English Bible, Good News Bible, Phillips Modern English, Living Bible (LB), New Living Bible (NLT), Jerusalem Bible, Modern Language, Contemporary English (CEV, "The Promise"), Today's English, Worldwide English, "The Message", or are you reading from a Greek or Hebrew version? http://www.swapmeetdave.com... I assume you are not reading from a Torah (Old Testament, and the basis for Judeo-Christian faith), as you say abortion is immoral, and the Torah allows it up to the third trimester (how oddly subjective, two different faiths based, at least in part, on the Torah disagreeing about right and wrong). To first rebut some of your examples of "wrong" things, adultery, while many people dislike it, the people committing it obviously do not believe that it is wrong, so here is an example of two (groups of) people disagreeing about morality, about right and wrong, how subjective of them. Murder, again people say it is immoral, but what is war but state-sanctioned murder. Seems odd, doesn't it. A random person kills someone, and is a murderer, yet a solder kills several people and is welcomed home a hero. Tad subjective, no? (Note: I'm not bashing our troops, just trying to make a point) gossip, if this is such an immoral act (as you say), then why do so many people around the world buy tabloids? They are just gossip magazines after all. How subjective of the world. Gay marriage, while several (mostly right wing Christians) despise gay marriage as a horrible sin, many others disagree, like say, the gays. What a subjective way to feel about a subject. I could show you why you're other examples of wrong behavior are subjective, but I think Vie made my point. Don't be an ageist, it's not an argument. It's your own personal feeling that the "young" don't have enough experience. To bad I disagree, how subjective of us. Your right in the statement "There is GOOD and EVIL" and "There is Right and Wrong" however, because everyone feels differently about what is good (right), and what is evil (wrong), they are both subjective ideals. Take Christianity, it was once part of the Jewish church, but it split off (around 400 ad) because it disagreed (subjectively) with some parts of Judaism. Then in the protestant reformation, it split into two different sects because of some rather large (subjective) disagreements. I could go on, but you get the idea. Your case is about how morality is what holds society together, however, as I have shown, this morality is entirely subjective. It is not morality (personal views) that holds society together, but the system of laws (societies) that it holds. thank you Con "Firstly, since you have neglected to define morality, here is mine: morality, an individual's personal sense of right and wrong." WRONG , WRONG , WRONG your PERSONAL views are irrelevant Morality is plainly and simply, a set of LAWS developed people over MILLENIA, based on both legal and spitirual means you DO NOT have the right to determine good and evil, they are set in stone if you start down this dangerous path of thinking , you will quickly find yourself supporting EVIL. becuase those that are EVIL and promote it use this notion Then you simply ramble and then come to this ABSURD conclusion "you say abortion is immoral, and the Torah allows it up to the third trimester" Oh please! Cite me the passages from the Old testament (torah) that support in any way this point of view Now onto the rest of your absurd points "adultery, while many people dislike it, the people committing it obviously do not believe that it is wrong, so here is an example of two (groups of) people disagreeing about morality, about right and wrong, how subjective of them." This is NONSENSE Both adulertous people KNOW they are being wrong, and are guilty Thousands of murders are committed every year, and hundreds of thousands of lives, espcially those of children, RUNIED by this SELFISH behavior you dont think it hurts kids for their parents to bitterly divorce? you dont think that the amount of pain and anguish from broken trust matter? you dont think the ruined lives and permanent distrust that happen matter? HOW HEARTLESS and WRONG! ----- your next liberal point ------- "Murder, again people say it is immoral, but what is war but state-sanctioned murder. Seems odd, doesn't it. A random person kills someone, and is a murderer, yet a solder kills several people and is welcomed home a hero. Tad subjective, no? (Note: I'm not bashing our troops, just trying to make a point)" The ONLY justification your try and make here is the COMPLETELY UNJUJSTIFIBLE you ARE bashing the troops and calling them the same as the scum who shoots a clerk in cold blood in a 7/11 or the SCUM who bomb innocents in Islamic fashion or the SCUM like "Mumia Jamal" who murder police officers YOU NEED TO HAVE YOUR HEAD EXAMINED ----------- your next liberal point____________ "gossip, if this is such an immoral act (as you say), then why do so many people around the world buy tabloids? They are just gossip magazines after all. How subjective of the world." When you look at the Buddhist codes of conduct, seven out of 11 deal with speech What we say is incredibly important Many have died based on LIES and FALSE RUMOURS FALSE WITNESS is not only a crime but one of the worst possible things GOSSIP is talking ill about someone NOT in their presence , where they cannot defend themselves It is a low behavior that I will not tolerate the fact that when rumours or even events are spread word of mouth, the story changes dramatically THE TRUTH IS THE MOST IMPORANT THING OF ALL ----------your next liberal point--------------- "Gay marriage, while several (mostly right wing Christians) despise gay marriage as a horrible sin, many others disagree, like say, the gays. What a subjective way to feel about a subject." You seem to always grasp for this argument SUBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE Isnt that a little bit weak? "Don't be an ageist, it's not an argument. It's your own personal feeling that the "young" don't have enough experience. To bad I disagree, how subjective of us." SUBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE Im sorry, but most kids are totally stupid and have no idea just how stupid they are the only thing that truly teaches is LIFE EXPERIENCE and your opinions are a perfect example- liberal sophistry finally you get something right "Your right in the statement "There is GOOD and EVIL" and "There is Right and Wrong" however, because everyone feels differently about what is good (right), and what is evil (wrong), they are both subjective ideals." SUBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVE you really need a new word "Take Christianity, it was once part of the Jewish church, but it split off (around 400 ad) because it disagreed (subjectively) with some parts of Judaism. Then in the protestant reformation, it split into two different sects because of some rather large (subjective) disagreements. I could go on, but you get the idea" So are you arguing that one is good and the other evil? Your final point shows your complete confusion "Your case is about how morality is what holds society together, however, as I have shown, this morality is entirely subjective. It is not morality (personal views) that holds society together, but the system of laws (societies) that it holds. Uhhhmm. How do you think we came up with our laws? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? |
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Pro SweetBags forfeited this round.
Con MORALITY IS NOT SUBJECTIVE YOU (YES YOU, KIDS) have a RESPONSIBILITY to YOURSELVES AND SOCIETY to be a MORAL PERSON AND DO THE RIGHT THING AND FIGHT INJUSTICE AND IMMORALITY SOLARMAN |
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Pro SweetBags forfeited this round.
Con MORALITY IS NOT SUBJECTIVE I rest my case SOLARMAN |
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Invalid argument. You defined a limit of right or wrong (it cannot decide between equally benefical or equally harmful oppurtunities) and then regarded the whole field as invalid just because it has limits. The missing step here, which cannot be repaired, is the step where you are supposed to demonstrate EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE being beyond those limits, which is impossible because I just demonstrated ice cream in the back pocket was not :D.
And morality is not about instincts. Instincts exist in many lower animals, who are not concerned with morality. Morality is the sole domain of the rational variety of animal (notwithstanding such consummately irrational animals as Solarman attempting to usurp it).
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The existence of opposing views does not mean both views are right and therefore everything's subjective, it means, because a contradiction cannot exist in reality, one of them, (I would argue the bible thumper), is wrong. Indeed, the beliefs of the wrong party cannot be called "moral" as such.
A law is passed to prevent or otherwise encourage the morality of its citizens, therefore, carrying ice cream in my back pocket is immoral"
That's a severe misunderstanding of any serious argument for objectivity of morals. Morals exist to enhance your life, they are objective in the sense that everyone who uses them benefits, because they are derived from the nature of humans and the nature of reality. This only applies to properly reasoned morals of course.
Carrying ice cream in your back pocket, for example, is generally immoral because it sacrifices a value (dry, non-sticky pants) when the ice cream melts, while gaining no value.
Of course it is also immoral to pass a law about carrying ice cream, because it leads to the sacrifice of a number of MAJOR values (human liberty, police resources,) while gaining essentially negligible values, that is, on net destroying values.
"your personal views are irrelivant [in reference to my definition of morality]"
ok, if my views are so irrelivant, then waht makes yours any better? the same argument holds true for your "definition" of morality, so i hardly see how this defeats mine.
"morality is a set of LAWS developed by people over MILLENIA"
i am sorry but this statement is false on sevral levels. firstly, if morality is a bunch of laws, then where are these laws written, could you perhaps tell me. even if this were true, it seems that every society, every culture, would have a different set of "laws" based on its own sense of morality, thereby making morality a subjective view. secondly, morality has changed from generation to generation. what our parents find evil, we might not (like in the waterboy. with momma calling everything the devil, and bobby disagreeing).