The Instigator
Noah25
Pro (for)
Losing
9 Points
The Contender
zakkuchan
Con (against)
Winning
24 Points

War in Iraq

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Started: 3/21/2008 Category: News
Updated: 6 months ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 338 times Debate No: 3326
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (41)
Votes (11)

 

Noah25

Pro

Many People are against the War in Iraq. I hope to change their mind on it.
Many people think that its all for nothing. I believe they are wrong it isn't. We as the great and powerful country that we are should help other country's so that they can start to grow. When I think of this topic I think of a child on a playground getting bullied and all the other children standing there watching him not offering any assistance whatsoever.
zakkuchan

Con

I thank my opponent for offering this topic, and I hope we can have a fun and civil debate.

I'm going to start by going over what my opponent has to say, and then I'll move on to provide my own reasons for being against the Iraq war.

"We as the great and powerful country that we are should help other country's so that they can start to grow." I disagree with this statement for two reasons. First, it makes the issue seem much more benign than it is: We're not talking about helping countries out; we're talking about going to war with them. Second, the statement really has nothing to do with Iraq, since there was already a well grown and established nation before we intervened.

"When I think of this topic I think of a child on a playground getting bullied and all the other children standing there watching him not offering any assistance whatsoever." The problem here is, in the case of the Iraq war, the United State is the bully. We're stepping on the sovereignty of a nation and people; more on this later.

Now onto my own justification.

I am standing in opposition of the Iraq War. Neither the topic nor my opponent's first statement gives any indication that I have to promote withdrawing from Iraq; all I must prove is that it is unjust, so I'm not even going to bother with the question of withdrawal or further strategy in Iraq.

I will show that the Iraq War is unjust for 5 primary reasons.

1. It was begun on false pretenses.

The initial purpose of the Iraq War was to get rid of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program. The problem is, it turns out none existed at all at the time of the invasion. I can provide evidence or further examination of this fact if necessary, but I'm pretty sure this is all common knowledge at this point.

2. It sets a dangerous precedent for preemptive war.

Even if Iraq had had a weapons of mass destruction program at the time we invaded, there would still be great injustice in invading the nation. A trend of preemptive war is the most dangerous path the world could go down – more dangerous even than nuclear proliferation. If we can invade a nation to get rid of a threat that doesn't exist yet, it sets the precedent that it is fine to do so. This is not a trend we want to start.

3. It violates the national sovereignty of Iraq.

A world map has boundary lines on it for a reason. Each nation is, by its very definition, independent from the rest of the world. There's no problem with communicating with other nations, and building international stability through peacefully coordinated bodies like the United Nations. But when war becomes the primary tool for settling international issues, the right of nations to rule themselves is violated. This is a problem for Iraq, but also to the world as a whole; for, by stepping upon Iraq's sovereignty, we have set a precedent that sovereignty isn't important. This is a bad precedent for every nation in the world, because it goes against the very essence of nationhood.

4. Many people have died or been displaced as a result of it, and it continues to threaten lives and livelihoods.

The American military casualty count of the War in Iraq as of today is 3996.* Total Iraqi civilian casualties as a result of the war are estimated between 82,267 and 89,778** (and that's one of the lower estimates; some others suggest several hundred thousand or even over a million deaths). The numbers speak for themselves.

4. The monetary cost is staggering.

A recent report by Congressional Democrats regarding the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan entitled 'War at Any Price?' found "that the total economic costs incurred to date -- including "hidden" expenses, such as higher oil prices, interest on borrowing, and the long-term care of injured soldiers -- are already about twice the 800 billion dollars the Bush administration has asked Congress to appropriate through 2008." The report also goes on to say that this total cost could be as high as $3.5 trillion by 2017.*** Again, the numbers speak for themselves.

5. It has destabilized Iraq, as well as the region as a whole.

Whatever else can rightly be said of Saddam Hussein, the fact of the matter is that he kept his nation and its immediate surroundings more stable than they had been in hundreds of years. We got rid of that stabilizing force, and have failed to replace it within a reasonable time frame. The result is that Iraq is going through a bloody civil war, and the Middle East is less and less stable every day. Iran and Saudi Arabia have both threatened to intervene directly in Iraq if this continues, and Turkey has already crossed the border in force a few times. If all three of these nations were to become involved, Iraq would be completely torn apart, and the Middle East would become a hotbed of violence that could easily spill over into the rest of the world. From the standpoint of national and international stability, therefore, the world was better off before we invaded.

The War in Iraq began on false pretenses, has set several dangerous precedents in international affairs, has had staggering human and monetary costs, and has destabilized the region. It is, to put it shortly, entirely unjust.

*http://www.antiwar.com...
**http://www.iraqbodycount.org...
***http://ipsnews.net...
Debate Round No. 1
Noah25

Pro

Noah25 forfeited this round.
zakkuchan

Con

Well, it's unfortunate that my opponent chose to forfeit this debate. I was really looking forward to it. If any proponents of the Iraq War would like to challenge me on this, I'd be glad to accept.
Debate Round No. 2
Noah25

Pro

Noah25 forfeited this round.
zakkuchan

Con

Again, if any proponents of the Iraq War want a real debate on this topic, you can challenge me and I'd be glad to have a real debate over it.
Debate Round No. 3
41 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 11 through 20 records.
Posted by zakkuchan 6 months ago
zakkuchan
You gave me evidence (and sketchy at that) that the war was LEGAL, and had nothing to say when I said "legal does not equal just". Nice try, though.

If anything, my personal inability to decide upon a solution shows just how ignorant it is to trust one person to solve everything - which is what the Bush administration wnats.
Posted by sadolite 6 months ago
sadolite
You have had five years to come up with a solution to this problem. You be sure and let the rest of us know what that solution is as quick as you can. The fate of the entire world is relying on your answer.
Posted by sadolite 6 months ago
sadolite
And I have given you irrefutable evidence that the war is not unjust, you just choose to ignore it.
Posted by zakkuchan 6 months ago
zakkuchan
There's a reason I prefaced this entire debate by saying that I wouldn't get into talking about further strategy or whether or not we should withdraw - I'm undecided at this point. I understand both sides, but I can't make up my mind between them. The one thing I know for sure, though, is that on the whole it is an unjust war (for the reasons I've provided), so that's what I sought to prove here.
Posted by sadolite 6 months ago
sadolite
I didn't ask you for another sermon on what you think about the law I asked you what your solution is to the Iraq war
since every thing about it is unjust and illegal. I want to know what "you" would do. And don't give an answer like we should have never gone in in the first place. That answer is the biggest cop out used by every single politician who is against the war so they don't have to answer the question. How would you end the war and what do you think the ramifications of that decision would be. I would hope you have a plan since you have so much knowledge about this subject and clearly are more qualified than the President in these matters.
Posted by zakkuchan 6 months ago
zakkuchan
Congress was wrong, but not criminally so. The Bush Administration is where the facts were cherry-picked, and it was the Bush Administration that presented those cherry-picked facts to Congress. Congress gave the rubber stamp, but most of them didn't understand the full implications because they took the administration's briefing over the intelligence rather than looking at all of it in detail.

A social contract is an implicit agreement between citizens and their governments, not an agreement between nations.

I never said the law isn't a solution. In fact, international law tends to be our best manner of solving international disputes. However, there are two points I'd like to make on this. First, we violated international law through unilateral action; international law (namely the UN charter) supports the use of carefully weighed multilateral military force, but opposes the use of unilateral force of the sort the U.S. has become accustomed to pursuing. Second, even if we had followed international law perfectly, that doesn't mean the resultant actions are necessarily JUST, which is what I was debating here.
Posted by sadolite 6 months ago
sadolite
If congress is wrong too then why shouldn't they be charged with war crimes. You offer a lot of criticism but absolutely no solutions. You wont even accept the law as a solution. Just how exactly do you propose that nations negotiate anything if the law is worthless, social contracts are worthless unless both sides agree. What would be your solution to end war between waring countries if laws and contracts are considered worthless unless both sides agree to the terms willingly. What would you call this great and wonderful institution that has no laws or resolutions yet is able to solve these monumental problems without force from your institution or ether side of two waring countries.
Posted by zakkuchan 6 months ago
zakkuchan
sadolite:

Legal does not equal just. When slavery was legal, it was still unjust. Sure, "the law" in the twisted form it now unconstitutionally exists in this country was on the side of Bush. That doesn't make anything he did just. And apparently you didn't catch where I said Congress was wrong too.

Ragnar: One consents to the social contract of a nation by living in the nation in question.
Posted by sadolite 6 months ago
sadolite
Ragnar, "Social contracts are invalid" then why in the hell should this country or any other country go to the U.N. to resolve anything. Why do we, the U.S. pay billions of dollars to the U.N. when nothing is valid. You to completely ignore the terms of surrender in the first gulf war as prescribed by the U.N. and call it invalid. Since you consider the terms of surrender invalid you must also agree that Kuwait should never have been liberated from Iraq. Iraq did not want to give up Kuwait so any contract that would compel Iraq to with draw would also be invalid based on your definition of a legal social contract.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 6 months ago
Ragnar_Rahl
The notion of a "social contract" is invalid. Contracts cannot apply to those who do not consent to them.
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